science – Salvaged Faith

Sing! Play! Summer! – How Great Thou Art

Posted on September 1, 2019Leave a comment

Text: Psalm 8

There are moments in our lives when we cannot help but sing our praises to the Creator of the universe.

Maybe you’ve felt it standing on the side of a mountain…
resting on the sand with your toes in the ocean…
quietly sitting on a deer stand in the middle of the woods…
kneeling in the garden amongst the zinnias…
staring up into the heavens on a cool dark night…

That sense of awe.
Wonder.
Majesty.

Swedish pastor Carl Boberg had those feelings overcome him in the aftermath of a thunderstorm.
As he later reflected:
It was that time of year when everything seemed to be in its richest colouring; the birds were singing in trees and everywhere. It was very warm; a thunderstorm appeared on the horizon and soon there was thunder and lightning. We had to hurry to shelter. But the storm was soon over and the clear sky appeared.
When I came home I opened my window toward the sea. There evidently had been a funeral and the bells were playing the tune of “When eternity’s clock calls my saved soul to its Sabbath rest”. That evening, I wrote the song, “O Store Gud”.

As a paraphrase and reflection on Psalm 8, it allows us to pause in praise as we reflect on the wonders of creation. How could we not think of the Creator? How could we not sing of the Lord’s goodness?
As I’ve shared with you over these years, astronomy and physics have always had a special place in my own call story. While I began my studies seeking to better understand the universe, that search led me straight to religion and faith and deeper questions about God.
Dr. Olsgaard and I were working on an independent study when he handed me this book, God and the Astronomers, where Robert Jastrow describes precisely this shift:
It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation… [the scientist] has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries. (p. 106)
When we stop.
Really stop.
Stop and think about the vastness of the universe, the mystery of how it all came to be…
How could we not worship and bless God’s name?

So this morning, as we think about this hymn, I want us to spend some time in awesome wonder considering the world’s that God has made and our place in it.
And rather than talk about it, I want to invite you to see it from a new perspective with this short film from National Geographic.

Then sings my soul, my Savior God to thee… how great thou art.

You know it is amazing to hear those voices of astronauts who describe being able to hide the whole planet behind their thumb.
Just as the psalmist invites us to notice, when we start to pay attention to this great expansive cosmos… we begin to recognize just how small we are.
Just how insignificant our place.
Just how little we know.
And the incredible wonder that the Creator who made all of that, also made me.

Who am I in vastness of the universe?
As Eugene Peterson writes in the Message translation of Psalm 8 asks God:
Why do you both with us? Why take a second look our way?

Who am I that God would notice me… much less come to earth, take on human life, live and die for me?

The version of “How Great Thou Art” that has made its way into our hymnals and hearts holds in tension that awe of creation and the story of redemption and salvation.
As many of the songs we have experienced this summer, the hymns journey from the original author to our hymnals was long and winding and was carried by missionaries. Originally, the eight verses were sung to a Swedish folk tune and was published in the songbook of the Mission Covenant Church of Sweden.
In the early 1900s it was translated to German by a nobleman who heard the song in Estonia.
That German version made its way to Russia and was published in a Russian-language Protestant Hymnbook.
It was there that English missionary Stuart K. Hine and his wife came across the song. As they traveled through the Carpathian Mountains, he created a paraphrase of the first three stanzas in English and finished the final one back in England after WW2.

Hine’s version starts with the wonder of creation from Boberg, but he adds verses three and four with a focus on atonement and salvation.
The third verse was inspired by a woman named Lyudmila. She had learned to read by studying the Bible and when the Hines arrived in their village, they heard her reading aloud from the gospel of John to a houseful of guests. While they remained outside, they listened in as these folks heard for the first time the good news and literally cried out how amazing it was that Christ would die for them.

In the vast scope of the universe…
The sun and moon and stars…
How awesome is it?
How incredible?
How breathtaking?
That God notices you.
That God loves you.
That God went through death for you.

What is our response?
How could we possibly begin to give thanks?
We start with praise… singing, shouting, giving thanks to our God.

But we also respond with a life filled with gratitude, service, and love.
As a lesser known verse, translated by Hine, reminds us:
O when I see ungrateful man defiling
This bounteous earth, God’s gifts so good and great;
In foolish pride, God’s holy Name reviling,
And yet, in grace, His wrath and judgment wait.
For as the Psalmist is quick to remind us, we were placed here in this moment for a reason and a purpose.
To have dominion over creation.
Put in charge of God’s handcrafted world.
Tasked with responsibility for the ground beneath our feet, the air we breathe, and all creatures that inhabit it… including our neighbors.
O mighty God! Brilliant Lord! How great thou art!
May we ever live up to this task.

Rising Strong: Failing and Falling

Posted on May 21, 2017Leave a comment

In this “Rising Strong” series, we have remembered a few things so far about what it means to live as children of the resurrection.

First – we have to be ourselves. God has uniquely created us with gifts and skills and has put us in this place for this time. We shouldn’t spend our days trying to be someone we are not. We need to learn to love and embrace who God has made us to be.

Second – we should wholeheartedly put ourselves to work for the Kingdom of God. If you are a fisherman – go out there and fish for people. If you are an accountant, go out and count people for Christ. If you are a mom or a dad or a grandparent, love every person you meet as a child of God. Take the life God has given you and use every minute of it to serve the Lord.

We are called to take both of those things and put them into practice. So, if you haven’t already filled out or turned in the “Gifts and Talents” booklet that we handed out last week – this is your opportunity. It is one way you can let us know here at the church what are some of the ways you are willing to be yourself and go all in for God. There is a box at the back of the sanctuary to turn them in, or you can drop them off in the office. There are also some blanks there, as well.

Today, we are going to ask what happens next…

What happens when you figure out who you are and you give it all to God?

Let’s pray:

In the past six weeks, I joined a gym… a “transformation center”… and spent some intentional time focusing on my own health and well-being. I’m now twenty pounds lighter and trying to figure out how to keep up the effort without the strict diet and accountability of the group I worked out with.

One of the things that we talked a lot about during those six weeks was failure.

Every week, there would be at least one exercise where our goal was to do as many as possible. Whether it was sit ups or planks, a dead lift or overhead press, the goal was to increase either the weight or the duration of the exercise so that you physically could not do one more rep.

Now, this was not how we were supposed to exercise every muscle every time. But the general idea was that if you weren’t pushing yourself and trying to really grow, you wouldn’t.

Arnold Schwarzenegger once said, “the last 3 or 4 reps is what makes the muscle grow. This area of pain divides the champion from someone else who is not a champion. That’s what most people lack: having the guts to go on and say they’ll go through the pain, no matter what happens.”

What most people lack is the guts to go on.

We lack the drive to be willing to push ourselves to failure.

In our gospel reading this morning, the disciples of Jesus Christ are in a boat. They have been sent by Jesus to head off and get ready for a new ministry adventure, but they have been kept up by everything that is going on outside of the boat. The wind is blowing, the waves are strong, and they are a bit fearful of what lies ahead. They really don’t know if Jesus will be on the other side of the lake in the morning.

We are a lot like those disciples. We are all here, because at some point we responded to the call of Jesus Christ in our lives and we showed up. We heard the call and got into the boat, even if we didn’t quite know where this boat was headed.

But, like the disciples, we also really want Jesus to come with us, to be with us, and we are afraid to push off from the shore out into the world.

In some ways, I think that is where our church is right now. We are hanging out in this boat that has kept us safe. You’ve been kept your heads above the waters and have navigated lots of storms. But the winds of the spirit have been blowing and have been moving among us, and I think that in many ways, we are now finding ourselves in uncharted waters – we are just a little ways from the shoreline that we are used to.

Right out there with the disciples. They found themselves in stormy waters, in unfamiliar territory, in a place they thought Jesus couldn’t possibly be. So much so, that they didn’t recognize Jesus when he showed up in the middle of the night.

Only Peter was brave enough, courageous enough, only Peter had the guts to go on and seek Jesus out there on the water.

He remembered who he was and who God was.

He remembered the ways that Jesus had called him to follow and the amazing things that could be accomplished in God’s name.

And he took the risk to step out of the boat… to be foolish and daring and to trust where the Spirit is leading.

He didn’t let his head tell him “no” when his heart was screaming “yes”.

And he walked on water.

Well, for a minute.

He got scared. He stumbled. He started to fall.

By all accounts, Peter failed.

But the thing is, he took the chance where no one else had.

He pushed himself far enough that he could fail, that he might fail, and while he did – it also meant that he was the only one who was in a place to grow from that experience.

In his book, Failure: Why Science Is So Successful, neuroscientist Stuart Firestein points out all the ways the scientific process guarantees failures and flops.

There are very few eureka moments or big discoveries compared with the thousands of failures and flops that happen along the way.

But every one of those failures is an opportunity to learn, tweak, grow, and do something different.

Every one of those failures allows you to learn a new limit or boundary and to push past it.

As a church, maybe we should embrace not only the art of ministry, but also the science of ministry.

We should take big enough risks and have the guts to try new things if the Spirit is leading us.

And we should not be afraid to fail and to fall flat on our face.

Because every time we do, we have the chanced to process, evaluate, and make adjustments.

When you turn in your Gifts and Talents booklet, here is the thing I want you to remember. You don’t have to be perfect in order to offer your gifts to God. None of us are. You will make mistakes. You will need others to help you and teach you. And you might even discover that something really isn’t for you. But you will never know what your limits are and how God might stretch you unless you offer yourself!

As a community, that also means that we need to be open and ready to surround people with love when they offer themselves and work for God’s kingdom, fully expecting that there will be mistakes along the way.

Innovation and discover take time, patience, grace, and a familiarity with failure. Holy failure. The kind of failure that means you are constantly moving on towards perfection – without judgment for where you have been.

God isn’t done with us yet… so may we have the courage to be ourselves, go all in, and make a whole lot of holy failures… knowing that Jesus (and this community of faith) is right here, ready to catch us.

Amen.

Thoughts on “UMC: Revisiting Human Sexuality”

Today, I saw an article by Rev. Dr. Steve Harper, the former Vice President and Dean of the Florida Campus of Asbury Theological Seminary called “UMC: Revisiting Human Sexuality.” He writes about a topic that has arisen at every General Conference in my lifetime… and will again in May.

My only experience of this discussion at the GC level was that of entrenchment, pain, and grief. Nobody really listened to one another. Everyone stuck to their talking points. And those who are most closely and personally impacted by our current position – LGBTQ persons (lay and clergy and their allies) – felt like they had no choice but to interrupt proceedings in order to be heard. I wrote about that day as it happened and you can read it, if you want, here.

But he brings up four points to bear in mind in May. He claims the terms of the conversation have changed since 1972; there is new information that needs to be heard:

Scholarly work has shown you can be a “biblical Christian” and hold a non-traditional view of the “clobber passages.”
Scientific research has transformed how we understand human sexuality.
the actual witness of LGBTQ Christians – “There is no doubt that gay Christians are living as faithful disciples and serving effectively as clergy.”
Our myopic view on LGBTQ persons has kept us from the conversation we should be having about human sexuality and ethical behavior in general.

Points one and three are probably the ones that have the most impacted my own position on this topic. I simply do not read six verses of scripture the same way some in our church do. But I firmly believe that we are all doing our best to be faithful to the scriptures. And perhaps my reading is impacted by my experience and relationships with LBGTQ persons… in the same way that our understanding of verses like 1 Timothy 2:12 has been impacted by the experience of women actually teaching (umm… like myself….). I can’t read those passages the same way after knowing the couple with three adopted kids who sat on the church board. Or the pastors who have challenged me with the gospel and provided care and comfort in difficult times. Or the friend who turned his back on a promiscuous life, found Jesus Christ, and is now happily married to the man of his dreams.

I think of all Rev. Dr. Harper’s points, maybe the fourth is the most compelling reason to change the conversation. I think of that friend I just mentioned who wasn’t able to separate his sexuality from his behaviors because he thought the church was rejecting all of it… until finally he heard that God loved him as a gay man and he found the ability to make different choices. Or the dinner conversation I just had at Easter about marriage: if the only criteria we use to define marriage is that it is between one man and one woman, then we lose our ability to speak about abuse, covenants, respect, mutual love, and a whole host of other biblical principals… and in fact, we ignore much of what the bible actually says about marriage (some of which, we happily reject).

I pray fervently that we can all truly hear one another at General Conference this year. I hope that the alternative process for these conversations might bear fruit – if we have the courage to vote for and use them on this topic. Above all, I pray that God would guide us and help us to be faithful, honest, and gentle with one another and show us a path forward as a people.

Potential Energy

Posted on January 16, 2011Leave a comment

I must admit that growing up, I was a bit of a science nerd. What can you expect from the girl who wanted to be a meteorologist? But I think the best part of science were the experiments – the hands on exploration of concepts. Because I saw it happen, I believed it. Because I was able to be a part of it happening, I learned it. It was the combination of not just hearing the words spoken, or reading them in a book… but actually doing it… that helped these concepts to be not just in my head, but also in my heart.

And I realized… faith is much the same way. Unless we are actively practicing our faith as we are learning about it… unless we are out there loving people and helping folks and praying and seeking God – then all of the stuff that we read in the bible or hear in a sermon are just words. But when we have hands on learning… when we have the chance to apply what we hear and read to our daily lives… then anything is possible.

Will you pray with me?

First off this morning – to engage you with more than just your ears, I want to give you a visual demonstration of this thing we are going to talk about this morning: Potential Energy!

Already the children have helped to explain some of these concepts to us… but I thought that Wiley E. Coyote might be able to help as well:

Well, there we have it, energy that is stored up in something – whether it is an object or a person – is POWERFUL. Just like a mousetrap that is spring loaded – or an actual coiled spring- all that energy is there, just … waiting… for the right…. Moment… to… SNAP – to release! To let all of that bundled up and constrained potential energy loose!

Well, I look around this morning and I see a whole lot of potential energy. I see a whole lot of bodies waiting… sitting… storing up… a whole lot of energy that can be released on this world!

{Well, inside… the energy is inside… Sheesh – some of you look like you are ready for naps already! Let’s make sure none of that energy goes to waste! }

The apostle Paul looked out on the communities he ministered to, also, and made a similar statement. Especially in our epistle for today. Today, we start to explore Paul’s letter to the church in Corinth… a church full of potential energy for the future.

“To the church of God that is Corinth,” he writes, “to those called to be saints… Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

“I give thanks to my God always for you… not because of anything that you have done – but because of the grace of God that has been giving you in Christ Jesus. And you have been enriched in every way by the Spirit of God, but especially in speech, in knowledge and in testimony.”

Paul starts out this letter with some praise, with some encouragement, with a reminder – that God has blessed them, God has equipped them, God has stored up in them a whole lot of potential energy and resources and talents and spirit… This is a church FILLED with the potential to truly set their city on fire with the love of God.

In particular, God has blessed them with three spiritual strengths. They have been gifted with speech, knowledge and testimony. They are a community that knows how to share their faith with words. They aren’t afraid to tell other people about God and maybe more importantly, they know what they are talking about. They have been taught well.

They have been blessed with speech, knowledge, and testimony. Are they using them to their full potential? Is all of that stored up blessing being used to its fullest extent? We’ll talk more about this in the coming weeks – but it is pretty safe to say that the answer is, no. They have everything they need… but much of their blessing is still waiting to be unleashed.

I was asked this week, if Paul were writing a letter to this community, gathered here on Sunday mornings, what three things would be lifted up as our spiritual strengths? What has God gifted and blessed this particular community with?

I have to admit… it didn’t take me very long to answer this question. And that is because as a community, we have done some work to discover who we are.

Back on October 31st… just two and a half months ago… we gathered as a community downstairs for worship. We broke bread with one another, we sang, we told stories. And we celebrated with one another who God has called us to be. We celebrated the things that have brought us together to this moment.

“The Family Meal 2” painting by De More

And if I had to pick out the three things I saw as our strongest gifts out of that Celebration of the Past they would be food, fellowship, and openness.

We are a church that has often brought people together around food. Whether it is a funeral supper or feeding RAGBRAI riders, a potluck or a progressive dinner… meals are one of our greatest passions and strengths!

We also have a strong fellowship with one another. We meet in small groups during the week, we take time to be with one another after weekly worship, we are a community and a family.

We are also open in many way. We often talk about how our communion table is open to all who wish to come. We have been open to going and serving in new ways – like when we answered the call to clean up after flash flooding in other communities and took with us folks who were not connected with our church. We are open to new people and to going to new places.

To heck with Paul… I’m writing a letter to you this morning and I say that “ I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that has been given you in Christ Jesus, for in every way you have been enriched in him, in your desire to break bread with others around the table, for the fellowship that you form through study and prayer, and for your openness to whomever the Holy Spirit sends your way… and wherever the Holy Spirit sends you.”

Now, we could have some debate on other fantastic and amazing gifts God has blessed this church with. Contrary to popular opinion, there are many. This church is so gifted, you can’t breathe without drawing in some Holy Spirit. All around us are financial resources, resources of time, a beautiful space with a roof that doesn’t leak anymore… people who can paint, people who can sing, people who can sew, people who can build things with their hands, people who garden and farm, people who can use computers, people who pray… people who love God and want to serve him and who have all come together to this place.

I look at that collage and I see amazing huge potential.

Lots and lots and lots of potential energy stored up. The Holy Spirit flowing within this church just waiting to be released onto the world!

I do not, for a minute, want to suggest that there isn’t some kinetic energy going on here as well… In so many ways, we are out in the world, living out our faith… the potential energy is being turned into kinetic energy and we are active! We serve all over the place, we respond when there are needs, we care for one another.

But…

Like the Corinthians we also have some obstacles in our way. We have some things that hang us up and get us stuck so that we can’t move.

Over the next couple of weeks, we are going to hang out with these Corinthians. We are going to learn about their troubles and their problems and think about whether or not they are things that get in the way of our ministry too. Think about ways of removing these obstacles so that all of that potential energy stored up inside of us can be unleashed on the world.

But, I think another reason why our potential energy sometimes doesn’t get unleashed is that we aren’t sure where to use it. We aren’t always sure what the needs are. We don’t know where our gifts and talents and strengths are needed.

For the next month and a half, as a part of our “Come to the Table” journey – we are going to be listening. We are going to open our ears to folks in the community as they come and share with us the ministries they are engaged in. The first one of this is right after church today, as Terri Schutterlee from the Iowa County Food Bank shares with us what they are doing to help fight hunger right here in Marengo and how we are and can continue to be a part of their work. We want to invite you to especially stay after worship on these Sundays to have a cup of coffee and a treat and to ask questions about what more we can do.

There is so much potential here. And when this energy gets unleashed… when we figure out exactly what God wants to do with us… world – you better watch out!

Amen and Amen.

television favorites

Posted on September 18, 2009Leave a comment

I just got to watch the first episode of a new season of Bones. And it just makes me happy! There is something about this unlikely match between Bones and Booth, the scientist/rationalist and the person of faith/instinct that really resonates with the way I view myself and my husband. Only we are opposite the pairing =) I’m the person who goes with her gut and trusts in things I can’t see. And half the time my husband and I can’t understand one another – and yet it works!

That and then you thrown in the mystery of the crime and the little things that make me laugh and the slight element of danger… it’s a great show =)

I’m also looking forward to Fringe – which is next on my “to watch” list. I know I said I’m not the scientist, but really I’m not the rationalist. I love the para-scientific elements of the show. I like the mystery involved in what might be possible. I love Walter and his slightly off view of the world and Olivia and her quest for something stable and her super inquisitive drive.

And then there is Grey’s. Which begins next week. I have high hopes tempered by disappointment from two… maybe two and a half seasons… of slight disappointment. I’m really upset that George is dead. And I’m not digging the fact that there are so many story lines going right now that I get to see about 5 minutes of each one in each episode. I’m hoping for a more cohesive focused direction this season. With humor, wit, love, angst and all of that good stuff thrown in. I want something that will match the caliber of the bomb episodes… and the normal everyday conversations about breakfast and the SUBTLE background about feminism and can we have it all and sex and relationships… not all the in your face let’s make a big deal and have a whole episode about it type of thing. My fingers are crossed – but I’m holding my breath.

Moltmann Conversation – Eschatology/Science

Posted on September 11, 2009Leave a comment

• Billboard in MN, said “Unless you confess God cannot bless”, more I thought about it, the more uncomfortable I got. It seems like a reformed idea, but I’m not sure it fits. It seems to me that God is by nature a non-contingent being. God isn’t sitting around waiting for me to do something, I don’t give God the power to forgive me. Once we do _____, then Jesus will return. Almost like God is handcuffed waiting for us to do certain things… If ___, then God _____. But this seems to be against the nature of God: I agree! You cannot make as a human being conditions to God. This is what it means to make God an object, and idol. God will bless whom God will bless, whether you confess or not. And with the relationship of God’s blessing and your professing – the initiative is God’s, He will bless and then you will be led to confess. God is God and not a bargain partner for you in your religion. This is completely heathen! The original idea of other religions in the world is ____ we give sacrifices and then God will bless us – but this is not Xian at all. It is a denial of the freedom of God. I am opposing completely this bargaining with destiny or with God. If I do this, God must do that – this is pure commitalism.

• So let me ask you about Jesus. If God as subject has complete freedom and God’s activity is not contingent upon our activity. Yet Jesus teaching about prayer is almost unequivocally – be persistent and God will give you what you want. (widow & judge, keep asking for bread): These are not the only sayings of Jesus about prayer. Whenever you pray, God knows already what you need, otherwise it would be nonsense to pray. The hearing of God preceeds your prayer.

• What does that mean about God’s relationship to time as we have experienced it? Can I pray for something in the past? What do you want to pray for? There is a long tradition of prayer for the dead. Medieval tradition of praying for the dead. Luther – pray 3 or 4 times for the dead and then hand it over to God b/c they are already included in the prayer to the lord. Calvin, don’t do that. I think I am praying for the dead, because the dead are not dead. They died, but we cannot say they are dead now. For Luther, they are sleeping until the day of resurrection. For Calvin, they are watching over us. Tradition from Asia – the dead are not in a modern sense dead and gone…. They are present and if you believe Romans 14 that Christ is the Lord of the living and the dead then we have a community with the dead in Christ and a community of hope because we were raised from death together. And therefore we must overcome this modern understanding of death as annihilation. We should learn from the ancestor veneration in Africa and Asia again. This would help and then you may pray for your grandmother.

• This idea of zimzum, which you borrow from kaabalism Judaism – I understand it as prior to creation, God was everything and in order to create something other, God withdrew Godself enough to make space for a relation, an object, creation with which God could have a relationship. Two questions: 1) what relationship does God’s self-relationship relate to panenthism 2) is part of God’s self-limitation that God voluntarily bound Godself to time? I am not the first one who took up this idea from kabalistic thinking – in Xian tradition for 300 yrs. Before God created, God decided to become the creator. 1st act of creation was not on the outside, on the inside. Out of his unlimited possibilities he took this one – to become a creator. He contracted himself from all the other possibilities to this one – to be the creator of the world. 2nd he created the world in time and space. So before he created heaven and earth there must be a womb/room place to which heaven and earth could be place – this is the place of creation and this is due to a contraction of God that another reality – the limited and finite reality of heaven and earth can be and can co-exist with God. The coexistence of a finite world with an infinite being presupposes a contraction so that they can both be there. This is the reason why there is freedom of the creatures… that there is creativity of the earth to the creatures in Genesis 1:26/24 – this is important. We can… whoever of you that has children, knows that at the beginning you must do everything for a child so that it can grow – but then 10-12 you must take away your sovereignty so that your child can grow and have freedom and responsibility and this is very creative to retreat into yourself to let another being be. This is the other side of creation. Normally we understand creation as act – but to take oneself back to oneself to let another being develop and flourish is very creative

• Very much in keeping with the activity of God in Jesus and the hymn of Christ in Phillipians: If you put it in Trinitarian terms it’s completely understandable b/c the F/S/HS are kenotic beings, giving self to the others and receiving the others into the selves, so you already have in perichoresis the self-limitation, so not only outside to the creation, but the true essence of the being of the son of God in relation to the father and the holy spirit. The kenosis is not only God’s acting to the outside in Christ, but already inside the Trinity – the persons self-giving to each other in the eternal Trinitarian love.

• So, do you think if God has a being by nature that is timeless, is part of God’s self-limitation that God has bound himself to time as part of his own self-limitation, that God is experiencing time with us? Yes – otherwise he could not be the Living God! The Living God has living, limited relationships to Israel, to the fathers, to Christ, to the church, etc. they are lively by limited relationships, otherwise you have a dead God. But if you have a living God then he must be able to have life giving relationships to other living beings. To put it more abstractly.

• Some of us who follow your theology are accused of being too Hegalian – that God is simply the unfolding of History… it is very easy to accuse a german theologian to be Hegalian, but Hegel did not develop an understanding of the Trinity – he had an understanding of world history as an autobiography of God, but this is not a good theology. He developed this dialectical understanding of world history as a history of God out of a self-consciouslness of the divine subject. But this had nothing to do with the God in Jesus. Hegelian closed system – nothing new can happen under the sun, no eschatology. Is this panentheistic? This terrible term was brought into the debate by a Hegelian – it means everything is in God, but this is only one side of the biblical understanding of the presence of God, the other part is that God is in everything! Understanding of OT, Shechinah – God dwells on high and in the souls and is dwelling in Israel – the cloud/fire – the indwelling of God. Behind the covenant with Israel is the intention: I will dwell among the Israelites. In the NT, you have a mutual indwelling especially in John & letters of John – the perichoresis, the mutual indwelling. I in you, you in me., remain in love – remains in God and God in him…. Much more than panentheism! …. The orthodox theology has a sacramental understanding of nature b/c God is already in everything which has life. This is alsot the understanding of the presence of God/HS that God is in everything in John Calvin (Institutes Book 1). For Calvin, the glory of God is already reflecting itself in all things. The burning fires of God are surrounding ourselves form all sides, but we don’t have eyes to see it! Had a strong understanding of creation in the HS. In Trinitarian terms, quite understandable. Theistic terms – you may end up in pantheism – then the question arises was God in the tsunami, with the terrorists. So I would put it all in Trinitarian terms and avoid an abstract philosophical theism.

• Also embrace an Easter theosis – God became man so that man can become God (Athanasius): Martin Luther had a wonderful idea…. God became human being so that we could, proud and unhappy gods become truly human in community with Jesus. God became human to liberate us from our god complex. Hubris is playing God with God – making conditions to the sovereignty of God.

• Original sin – Augustine thought was impt – condition genetically passed on that left God no choice but to have this transaction. On Original sin, Judaism doesn’t have a doctrine of original sin: I think these ideas of Augustine are leading to a Xian type of Gnosticism. That procreating is already bad and that sex is… original sin is like aids which we deliver from one generation from another and you had better stop this and become a monk or priest to stop this procreating of original sin – this is Gnosticism. This is not following the OT understanding of life and the joy of life. We have received life and we should give life to another generation and those who cannot are poor. Original sin has nothing to do with sex and procreation – the idea is more collective guilt. This was the understanding of Luther in the articles – one fundamental sin, capital sin and this is general. So everyone is guilty of everything which happens in the world because everything is related to everything – same as Dostoevsky – collective destiny because we share into everything and everything shares with us and we need liberation of this collective guilt of humankind. This has nothing to do with Adam or Eve – in the NT, still debate of whether sin came through Adam or Eve! This is all speculation I think. We can follow the church understanding that guilt came into the world through Cain and Adam through brother murder and since that time there is one against the other and there is war and murder in the world – this is more realistic I think.

• Many of us grew up in a church that had this forensic transaction that God’s anger could only be appeased by this sacrifice of the Son – we’ve talked about “identification” atonement but there area also scriptures that talk about the sacrificial nature of the crucifixion: Other religions, I give so that you may give. If you don’t sacrifice enough or in the right way, the Gods became angry and you experienced disease/earthquake – so whenever these things happen you look around for whether there was one who didn’t sacrifice/offer enough! Happen to Jonah. This is all not Biblical. The scapegoat is giving by GOD! He is not asking this from the people of Israel, but giving this to Israel so that the sins can be put there and then the goat carries the sins away to the desert. God is reconciling himself with the world – he doesn’t need a sacrifice. He is himself giving his own son to reconcile the world to himself. 2 Cor 5 – the initiative is God’s initiative. They used the old temple language, but something completely different is meant – it is the love of God by which he reconciles the whole cosmos to himself.

• If that’s the reformed part of your theology coming out so strongly – it makes God always the protagonist – God is always the initiator of the action between humans and Godself. How is that… in the Trinity image of perichoresis… there is so much in that relationship that it overflows and sweeps all of creation into that. How is God in that way the protagonist, in allowing that love to overflow – in creating so much love: Love takes God outside of himself – he wants to communicate the joy of his love. He creates creatures which can resonate this beauty and love of God. So he is not in need of the creation – the creation is a result of his overflowing joy and love.

• Speaking of love… known as eschatological theologian – seems to me both liberals and conservatives have a negative view of the end. Liberals: church is shrinking, society more banal; Conservative: when Jesus comes back there is going to be a shitstorm. It was good news when Jesus came the first time, it will be good the second time – but this is not the overwhelming understanding today: If there is a new creation, new heaven, new earth – new song this is not the end but the beginning! The new creation will be the eternal creation so we must look forward not to the end but the beginning – the beginning is not behind us, its before us – the best is still to come. This is a certain kind of dispensationalist which is not a Christian idea – the old Jewish idea that God created the world in seven days, so the world history will follow seven dispensations. With every dispensation, the world grows older and older and our time is running out. It’s coming shorter and shorter to the end. You can think about this without mentioning Christ. Christ had just one part in it between disp. 5 & 6 or 6& 7 what is lacking is the New Beginning which we experience in the resurrection! There is already a new beginning inside of world history in anticipation of the general resurrection and the new creation…. The new has already begun, the future of God is not far away or very short, but has already begun with the coming of Christ/resurrection of Christ. Read the prophets – don’t remember the things of old – behold, I create a new thing! Old and new are the categories of God’s work in world history, not dispensations.

• My synthesis of Moltmann and Gotteman? Is that there is this horizon that is approaching us – and as I grow, my interpretive horizon is growing and at some point, these horizons meet and this is the eschaton when them meet? They met already! Because the eschatological horizon has already opened up with Christ and the Spirit of the resurrection so you can speak of this horizon, otherwise you would develop your own person horizons into the unknown. If you still have resurrection hope, you develop your personal relations in the horizon of your life inside the horizon of the resurrection – Morning has come!

• Do you think there will be a moment in time that is the paraousia? That humans will experience a moment in time of Jesus return? Yes. Well, we have this time of linear concept of time, future/present/past – this is the time of our clock. In linear time, Jesus will not come – otherwise Jesus will come at 10:15 tomorrow on a train from Chicago… this is impossible to think. We also have kairos time – good opportunity. Our life experiences are not according to clock time, but kairos – a good time. This kairos is an anticipation of the eschatological moment wit hthe trumpets and the dead will stand up/rise up. So you can put it in terms of fulfilled time. In a fulfilled time, for fulfilled life, you don’t care about the clock anymore. You live so to speak in an eternal moment. Therefore whenever you come into an intensity of living, the clock goes away. Clock time is not very good understanding of time. I had a friend who visited and interviewed an Indian swami and said I must go and the Indian said you have the clock and we have time.

• Truly reformed person doesn’t think we cooperate with God in anything – yet you write, of us being co-creators with God and cooperating with God in creation, particularly in your ecological theology: Paul spoke about his work as a co-creator with God. I don’t think putting all the responsibility on God is a good Christian understanding of God’s presence in the world. It’s not that God has no hands apart from our hands, but that God enables us, gives us chances, and energy to work in accordance with his will. To resonante with his tune and to take responsibility to which includes response! If God would be all-in-all already, the reformed pastor would be right, but he is not all-in all, it is our responsibility. I think he was speaking to come of age and not little children to go and do anything. I think Calvin would disagree with this reformed pastor.

• Daniel Harrell – Nature’s Witness – my question/interest goes back to testimony of science that it brings to our understanding – creation bears the handprint of God. Trinity in creation esp that creation that science portrays for us is rife with decay, death, disease – all of this preceding the advent of the new creation. Who is the Trinitarian God in creation giving this nature? I think the fundamental question of natural sciences is do you understand what you know. Our knowledge is duplicating, we know everything it’s in the computers, but do we understand what we need. We need a hermeneutics of nature along with scientists. Interpret science of nature explained by scientists. Scientists explain, but we need understanding. EG: a doctor measures your blood pressure/temp/data from your body to tell if you feel not well. He takes the data as symptoms of a disease. He interprets the symptoms of a disease you have – then therapy can begin. Similar w/ natural science. They take the data, we must understand as symptoms of whatever we suspect and interpret these to understand what we know. And to understand the data we get from climate research and economic research as we put them together to see them as symptoms of the coming natural catastrophe and then we can react and put therapy in as requires to prevent the danger that is coming with a hermeneutics of nature.

• I would agree with that… original question – when you see what science reveals regarding nature, what is the Trinitarian interp. Of nature that comes to bear: we put whatever we know of nature in the transcendent dimension. The evolution of live – we see that they all belong to the same family. The transcendent dimension there is no progression of value – the primitive forms are just as important as the advanced lives! Bring us to Darwin understanding of evolution. Second – we can see the working of the HS as the immanence of transcendence in every complicated being forming their self-transcendence. Or biologists say more complex life forms are open systems, transcending themselves. This is an expression of the immanence of the transcendent spirit – there can be no self-organization in the natural world with out transcendence!

• So then part of the struggle for some Xians who try to see Darwinian evolution through a theological grid is the problem of decay/death/deformity – how is that an manifestation of the spirit? Is it a fallout of the spirit? You must differentiate between the HS herself and the energies of the HS – lots of different gifts of the HS – every Xian is filled with energies, therefore they form a community of different gifts and different energies. It is similar in the world There are different energies/gifts/ one spirit. The annihilating energies are not from the spirit. In each criminal act, or negative act of destruction, there is energy which must be redeemed! This is in another book of Dostoevsky that even the sinners redeem the sin – that is transformed the criminal negative activity into a positive life giving, affirming energy.

• Would you then say that the necessary organic death that happens in context of evolutionary epoch – is that redemption? Which would make that death a bad thing, or is that necessary death which leads to life a positive of the spirit? Lets start from the final end = if death is no more, there will be a creation without organic death. Not only death of the sinner, but no more death So new creation, new biology, so how is that different from now? The indwelling of God – we have only an anticipatory glimpse of the creation, that is not yet here in this experimental way of creation that this is.

• So kairos time in this new experience, it is something that has to be something that is so radical that we can’t really have an experience in our current life that would approximate it. There has to be this dramatic transformation if we are talking about brand new creation. If we are talking about physical/experienced reality. Maybe no different from whoever is in Christ is a new creation – what is new in you/ over and against… is there a radical discontinuity in the new creation ? You cannot talk about discontinuity without continuity – not an either/or question. But we have so many anticipatory changes from the old to the new that we cannot understand this quite easily. For Paul this was a change of name. new identity with Christ living in him. This is to some extent true for every Xian, whether we are conscious of it or not.

• So to the scientist/biologist for which such discontinuity would defy everything they know about created reality – how would you speak to them regarding that unfathomability? In biological terms, you either have an evolution of causes and everything is in development because everything isn’t already enveloped in the beginning – so nothing new can happen – everything is already included in the original. New term – emergence… something new can develop, the whole is more than the sum of the parts… always something new is happening and we try to integrate it in what is already… without the new, nothing would emerge. We cannot understand the coming new as a coming old from the past. To analyze the parts of something does not lead to an understanding of the whole. “Genome” – looking at a genome you can’t tell who someone is, because from the past of his genes, you cannot extrapolate who that person is!

• Given that this earth as we experience it will certainly end, if physics is correct. What does our hope anticipate for us on the other side of that. I strongly believe in the teliosis concept of the church fathers/orthodox theologians – God will be all in all! in every science, the end is not the annihilation of the world, but the deification of the world . Lutheran: annihilation and only God/angels/saved survive somewhere in heave; Reformed: not annihilation, but transformation of the world, into new creation; Orthodox: deification of the world, indwelling of God in everything – very close to reformed tradition of transformation.

• Part of this dialogue is for the theologian that is open to the contributions of science – there are ways theology adjusts to that, but you don’t see science adjusting to the hermeneutic that theology can bring, so I find a struggle there: The struggle between religion and science is better than ____ science. We came out with a book, the end of the world and the ends of God.