Transcript from last Sunday’s Conversation in Worship
Text: 1 Chronicles 15:25-16:3
Katie: Well good morning to all of you! I have some special guests with me here today. They are familiar faces because they have been with you these past two weeks while I have been on vacation. Pastor Paul and Pastor Beth, both from Women at the Well.
Today we are making this trip to New Orleans for the Jazz National Monument and one of the things I kept thinking about was this idea of improvisation and how when things get difficult or get tricky sometimes we have to find a new way of doing things, a new way to make music, to change the pace and try something different. So I actually thought this was a great opportunity, talking with these two, about some of the things that have been different with Women at the Well.
So we are going to have a little conversation for our message today. I want to start by talking about this passage. David has gone off to rescue the Ark of the Covenant because it has been stolen away during the time of Saul and he is king now and he thinks his job as the king is to go and take it back and bring it to where it belongs. So he charges after it with his army. But this isn’t like a couch you can pick up and throw in the back of the truck! He charges in and they aren’t prepared, they aren’t quite sure what they are doing. This is a holy object and God’s presence is there. There is a man along the way, the ark starts to fall off of the wagon cart and this man named Uzzah, reaches out and touches it to pick it back up and God kills him right then and there. It is dangerous to touch!
So, David stops the caravan right there. He stops the caravan and for three months nobody moves. They leave it there, they go home, and they say – okay – we have got to try something different.
I’ve been thinking about how as pastors and leaders of communities we kind of pushed pause on everything because things were dangerous and things were unsafe. There are times when we hit those roadblocks in ministry and the things that we have been doing no longer work. And I know that has kind of been the case for Women at the Well. So I wonder if you can talk about how you have experienced that in your own ministry. The roadblocks and the times you have had to take a momentary pause because the things that you were doing couldn’t happen anymore. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that?
Paul: Sure. Well, I love the pause button. I actually like all of the buttons on the remote control. No big surprise there. And I use those inside the prison when we do a re-entry workshop. And the pause button in particular is a good tool. I try to remind the women of that. But really it’s for all of us, and I think the pandemic has been an enormous global pause button. And I think all of us have experienced that and we are like enough of the pause already
Katie: Yeah, we are so done with the pause.
Paul: Resume. Fast forward. Something. Skip. I think it is a very helpful tool for people in recovery, women going through re-entry and thinking about coming back home to pause and not do the first thing that comes to their mind. First thought, bad thought, is something that gets a lot of people in trouble.
And I think in ministry that is probably true, too. Sometimes we think, Oh, well the Holy Spirit told me to do it. Well, did you pause and are you sure it is the Holy Spirit. That’s not a bad question. Maybe it is the Holy Spirit. And David may have had a moment too where, you know, the Holy Spirit told us to get going and then – pause – maybe that wasn’t the Holy Spirit. Maybe that was our national pride or some other thing, some other agenda at work there.
And then, Pastor Beth comes on board here while we are in this pause. I don’t know what that has meant for you, to think about the pause, and even since. The ministry still continues even though we can’t be in the prison. We haven’t since March. But there are still opportunities to pause…
Beth: So when I came to Women at the Well it was just a unique experience for me because it was a different kind of ministry and I have not been able to see the people that I’m serving. But I think through the course of these last several months when I was receiving training for this ministry, it has occurred to me that this isn’t my ministry anyway, it is God’s ministry. Through these women.
I’m reminded of that scripture where Jesus is at Jacob’s well and this woman who is serving… she is having to undergo a new way of looking at the world and after she understands what Jesus has explained to her, she goes and tells the people in the village what they need to know. In the course of these events, you know, I was reminded reading those scriptures again that we are called to go out and share the good news. And that these women [in the prison] are not able to do that right now, but we can do it for them.
And so as we have gone through some strategic planning, we have had a transition team and as we have been going forward we have realized that we maybe need to expand the ministry for the women at the well.
Katie: Yeah, you know I think that is really helpful. Both of you have hit on the idea of the pause being a time of listening. And I think that is what happens with David. He takes these three months. The Ark is kind of parked in this guys barn, basically, and he spends some time with God and improvises a new game plan but really a lot of that time is spent listening to God and what God wants him to do. And not just charging in with what his plan had been.
So what has that been like for Women at the Well to spend some time in intentional listening? What are some things that you are hearing about how ministry is going to be different in your contexts?
Paul: Well, I’ll let Beth talk a little bit about our strategic plan, our ministry action plan, we’ve been through a lot of transitions, really since prior to when Beth came on board. We had a transition team that helped us to improvise a new plan and transition leadership. And then through conference leadership we had a second process and we improvised it a bit more, we finessed it a bit more, we rewrote and edited it.
But the one constant through that has been: a significant part of our plan involves spiritual practices. Which I think is a reminder that we know the importance of stopping, listening, reading scripture, having a daily practice, engaging and helping others to engage as well. So we have breath prayer and centering prayer and lectio divina. And just anything… The review: You know when I talked about the buttons on the remote control. There is a rewind! There is actually a spiritual practice, right, the daily examen, or looking back over your day. I think that is a wonderful way of sort of thinking about that. And so we have all of these and they are a wonderful part of our ministry action plan. For us as leadership, for the women, for the council, whenever we gather, whenever we have a meeting, lets make time to listen and make sure we are connected to the divine source, is how I would say it.
Beth: Yeah, I think just to dovetail on that. There are so many ways that we can practice our, I’m going to call it, emotional agility. Where we are improvising during our lives. We aren’t getting stuck in any one place, but we are able to move forward in new kinds of ways. You know, I think in the process of this creative time, listening to all of the different kinds of ways we can worship. So here is David. And he is practicing worship in a new way. And maybe it is an OLD way, where he was dancing around, well, he’s got an ephod on.. [ laughs ] … and so I can see that…
Katie: Which is kind of like undergarments
Beth: Yeah!
Katie: It’s not much!
Beth: Right! So for people to realize that there are other ways that we can move forward in our worship of God and in our celebration of that. It just draws us closer together and helps us to integrate our emotions and helps us to realize we are all going through this same thing and there are lots of different ways we can go about it.
Paul: It is important to say this, too, when I think about improvisation. I’m thinking about we are a church, inside a prison. So we are a church and all that goes along with that in terms of being spirit led and organized. We are a Methodist church, with all of the structure that we have to adhere to there. And then we have to operate within the framework of a prison system, the Department of Corrections.
And I was thinking about improvisation. You know I was trained as a classical pianist. I spent many years studying classical piano where you play every note that is written, as it is written. You can add your personality to it with sound and technique, but you don’t play what is not written!
Katie: Right!
Paul: And over the years, I’ve played with it, I’ve gotten a little better with improvisation. But the idea with jazz, in the New Orleans jazz scene, there is a structure within which you work. But then you have all of this freedom to rip and riff and jam… whatever word.. you can do a solo that stays within the key and the structure and the rhythm, but you have a lot of freedom.
I think our struggle continues to be where is the freedom? Are we just classical musicians here? Sometimes it feels like the Department of Corrections says, you can only play these notes…
Katie: This is the box…
Paul: Right this is the box, and you have to do this rhythm. I think one of the cool things about jazz is that there is sometimes one rhythm over here and there is another rhythm over there, right? It plays against itself. That’s what we have to figure out. Where is there freedom?
So one of the women in the prison sat down next to a visitor and the visitor asked her what she liked about this place. And she said, “Oh, I love the freedom.” This is a woman serving a life sentence and she loves the freedom.
Katie: Because she knows where her bounds are and so within that she has a lot of freedom. That’s very true!
I know we have had a long partnership with Women at the Well here at Immanuel and there have been a lot of things that we have been involved in – from re-entry teams to joining you at the prison for worship and I know some of those things are outside the box of what is allowed right now.
There is a little bit of grief with that, I know, as we have all experienced that. And I can kind of think about David experiencing some grief as well. He had some ways he thought he would be doing this. He went out the first time with his military garb on, ready to charge. And the second time he goes out, he goes basically in his undergarments, this linen cloth, and he is dancing and he is singing and he casts aside what he thought he was supposed to doing and listened to God. He just gets kind of carried away by the rhythm and the music. He starts leaping, there is dancing, there is all of this joy.
In fact, it is so great that his wife who is watching this procession come into town from home… she looks out and sees him and she is really embarrassed for him and of him. It is not becoming of a king, and you find that line in the scripture. You know we all have roles that we thought we might be playing and then we discover that it is not exactly like that. How has your improvisation with Women at the Well been like that? Where are some new things you are doing and where you finding the joy and the excitement and where are you kind of just being carried away?
Beth: Well, I think there have been lots of different directions that we have looked. I think that is one of the things when you are going through a time of change like this and you know the wind is blowing… new things! Sometimes it is nice to go down this road for a while, and then you go down that road for a while, and you somewhere you begin to see where it is a little brighter. There is a path that seems to be a little easier. And sometimes to be able to move forward down those roads, to help see that God is the one leading. You aren’t the one leading.
And so what we have discovered is that it is possible for us to maybe take some classes, educate our selves a bit more. Just like with Black Lives Matter. We, white folks, need more education. We have to realize that there is more to learn. So one of the subjects I have found myself rediscovering and checking in on is social justice, restorative justice, in particular. Paul and I have been going to visit with lots of people, in lots of different Zoom sites, to learn more about this subject. We’ve met this woman by the name of Norah Jacob, and she has helped us to discover some new curriculums that maybe we can share. In fact, I think we are ready to do that. And she has helped us to recognize there are a lot of connections between restorative justice and what’s going on with the Black Lives Matter movement. It’s not just a matter, it’s a movement, as was explained to us by Jackie Thompson. There are so many other things, relationships between trauma… Many of the people who are in prison have been traumatized. Most of them, by a long shot, have had to go through trauma. And so, recognizing that that is another area we need to discover about. And to see the connections between all of these. Between the war on drugs, between addition.
As we make these connections in our lives and realize that we need to discover more for ourselves, take a step back, sit for three months, like David did, and discover that we don’t have the answers. So instead of reacting, to sit back and learn more, to discover what God is trying to teach us and then we can be proactive in moving forward.
Katie: Paul, do you want to add to that?
Paul: I find joy… you know we’ve had to reinvent how we worship, since we can’t go into the prison. We’ve been doing it on facebook live. Come see us – Thursday Nights at 7 on the Women at the Well facebook page. And through that, unexpectedly, we are connecting with former offenders who are in Florida, and all over Iowa, and before we could not intentionally reach out and connect with these women. And we can now, just because they know about our facebook page, now they know we are doing worship. So we are still ministering to former offenders, returning citizens, and their families.
You know there is one guy, he is the husband of a person who is serving a long sentence, and he likes our Facebook page every week and I think he visits our worship. It is really nice to know that we are offering worship, hope, prayer, music, and inspiration to a whole community. That otherwise, like this husband, you know there is no way he could ever come in and worship with us on a Thursday night, and now here he is. Unfortunately, she is not worshipping with us, but we are working on that! That is another roadblock we hope to overcome. But maybe we can record these and get them inside the prison. Especially if this is going to continue, as it looks like it will, for however long. So some new connections, that wouldn’t otherwise have happened, is something that I celebrate.
Katie: Absolutely!
Well, I’m so glad that you guys were able to come and take this time to be with us, so we can hear this update on what is happening with Women at the Well and what ministry looks like. And I am also so grateful that you have been with us these last two weeks to lead worship while I have been gone. And I want you to know that our whole congregation is praying for both of you and for your ministry.
If you didn’t know, the offices for Women at the Well are now in our building, right below us, on our lower level, because of some of the reasons that you can’t be in the prison in the same way as before. We are so glad to be able to support your ministry in multiple ways and prayer is one of them.
Paul: And we thank you for your partnership and your support and hospitality
Beth: Hospitality indeed! Several months ago, when I moved in here, there was an internet issue. Can I share that this lady – she was crawling up into the ceiling, helping us to thread the wires to make it all work, and so thank you for your hospitality and your welcome.
Katie: Yes and I know some of our trustees folks have been working hard on that, too, so thanks to Wendell and others who have been so instrumental. As we close up this time of learning, let us now turn our hearts towards prayer.
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